Comments – הערות
Sometimes the web feels like such a lopsided relationship. I’d love to hear from you and to hear what you think of this project and to hear if/how you’re using the files available. I’d also love to hear suggestions for the future of this project. Finally, I’d love to hear that some of you are interested in helping out with this project (before your mind goes there, not financially… I don’t have any interest in having to manage this as a charity or anything like that… this is all out of my pocket and I intend to keep it that way *GRIN*). So… leave me a note and tell me what you think!
Hello/שלו?
I found your website through Google. I had also considered starting up a free siddur type project, although I wasn’t sure if there would be any real interest, or if I could make the required time commitment. I had something of a grander vision than putting up prayer text online. I was thinking of making something of a universal siddur, with options for outputting in various nusachot (depending on what text was available), transliterations, and capable of translations in multiple languages.
First, a few (hopefully constructively critical) comments on what you’ve got so far:
I don’t think Microsoft Word format is the right way to go about it. Word 2003 format is 100% reproducible on only two operating systems, and requires any user to purchase a very expensive proprietary software package. There may be patent issues associated with implementing Word documents on other operating systems and in competing software. Read-only PDF is cross-platform, but, you can’t get any contributions through it. Also, limiting your user base to Windows computers means that you’ll lose a large part of the open-source community as potential contributors. Making the siddur text fully cross-platform using Unicode encoding, an open XML format, etc. would go a long way to making it more widely available. My idea was to use Wiki technology and PHP (or another preprocessor) to allow anyone with a Unicode-capable system to make contributions and corrections. Unfortunately, I don’t have readily available web hosting to implement it.
Fortunately, lots of the siddur text is Tanach. There is already a public-domain Hebrew Tanach online at the Internet sacred text archive. I’m somewhat curious as to how the author of that site does his transcriptions. A siddur project could be helped a lot by scanning and OCR-ing from a printed public domain (pre-1923) siddur.
I think that you do have to seriously think about copyright/legal issues. When you say “free,” what do you mean? Is your text public domain? Are you retaining complete copyright over it, and just leaving it on the web? Do you want to allow for derivative works? Noncommercial use-only? What is the status of a contribution?
I think there can be a lot more in this than copying your favorite siddur to an online-friendly format. Thoughts?
elfsdh (http://elfsdh.blogspot.com), elfsdh@gmail.com
Thanks for your comments. First, if you’re interested in working with me on this project I’d love to chat sometime (perhaps after Sukkot). Now… on to your comments:
MS word and Acrobat PDF – you’re absolutely right that these formats limit the project to windows machines. I would love to find an alternative (like you suggested, xml and direct Unicode encoding, perhaps) but for now this is what I’ve got. That said, it wouldn’t be difficult to copy the text I’ve created into an open-source format. Something to think about in the not so distant future. I have wanted to play with the Wiki system and thought, even if it is just for the sections on “how-to” it would be a useful construct. As for the patent issues – I’m not sure what you mean. Are you referring to the use of MS Word and Adobe Acrobat to create the files or are you referring to somehow porting their technology to some other format?
Copyright issues – I don’t pretend to know everything about copyright but from what I can gather (both as a law student having taken classes on point and having discussed these issues with faculty in that area and with practitioners in this field), this is a non-issue as for the simple text, nikudot, and troupe. There are a number of cases that have decided these issues (at least here in the US) and so there doesn’t seem to be reason for concern about violating someone else’s copyright (since the court has said that this sort of thing – text, nikudot, and troupe – would not be copyrightable).
In terms of retaining my own copyright – I have given it some thought and I’m not interested in retaining any such right. I really do want the entire content of the site to exist in the public domain. I want folks to feel free to use it as they see fit and to face no barrier to doing so. When it comes to the Hebrew text that’s an easy one (as I discussed above). It will become a bit more tricky as I solicit friends and colleagues to submit translations and nusach. On the issue of translation – if it is truly an independent translation it shouldn’t be a problem but policing the translations to assure that they are independent may be a problem. As for nusach the issue would be a multi-layered analysis. First, is the tune original? If it is original, is it old enough that it has no copyright? Regardless of the age, is the arrangement separately copyrightable? Is the arrangement unique? Etc. Since I’m not quite there yet I still have some time to get my head around these issues.
potential for more – I agree whole heartedly that there is potential for more than just online-friendly text. If the project goes forward, I think it would be great if it were a place to exchange notes on kavanah, on how to lead, on how to teach the prayers, on how to organize your own synagogue, on what additions to the liturgy and/or changes people have implemented (like adding in Emahot to the amidah) and so on. At this stage of the game, however, I’m still trying to decide first, if this is worth working on and second, if the transliteration is any good (to determine if I should invest in Saffa). My gut says the project is worthwhile but the feedback I receive (like your feedback) will help me get there. As for the transliteration – I haven’t received any feedback on that issue. I personally am never satisfied with transliteration but I’ve shown friends how I would change things and they seem wholly unsatisfied with my “system”. 🙂
So… that’s that. I hope to hear from you (ariel -at- arielbenjamin -dot- com). Thanks again for the comment!
I would be happy to talk to you more after the holidays.
On MS Word: I was more referring to any possibility of Word 2003 format ever being readable or writable on a non-Windows system. I agree that typing things in any Unicode format is good as a first pass, as long as it can be saved as plain text.
Also, Word is a word-processing program that would do awful things to anyone who wanted to reformat the siddur. I would want to separate presentation from document structure (similar to what XHTML/CSS and LaTeX do). If you save your documents as plain text, for example, the document will appear to be interspersed Hebrew and English. That wouldn’t be good for someone who wanted to produce a Hebrew-only siddur pamphelet.
On copyright issues: The original text of davening is, of course, public domain. As far as I understand it, any post-1923 additions and corrections might not be, and that includes even minor things like changes in pointing. You actually have to put up a notice intending for your work to be considered public domain. It’s copyrighted by default. I wouldn’t advise restricting works any further than they already are (eg, claiming copyright on the original text of the siddur like Artscroll does, or on the text of Tanach like Mechon Mamre does), it just feels wrong. I was actually more concerned with original work, such as translations and transliterations. It might be advantageous to require contributions to be put under a copyleft, to keep them attributed and freely distributable. For this type of project, incidentally, I would not be in favor of restricting commercial use.
By nusach, I actually meant liturgical rite, not tunes; eg Ashkenaz, Ashkenaz + Conservative, Ashkenaz + Reform, Sephard, Sepaharadi, Ari, Italian, Mizrachi, etc. There actually are perverse cases where non-Orthodox (and, some commonly used Orthodox) davening text is actually owned by someone.
In terms of policing copyright issues, the easiest way to do it is to make contributors agree that they have rights to post, and put up an email address to deal with copyright complaints. If you get a legitimate one, remove the work.
On transliteration: There are so many different styles of pronunciation and everyone has a different opinion on what mode of transliteration is considered “good.” I don’t use transliterations, so I don’t know what I like, but, I’ve met quite a few that I don’t like. Incidentally, it would not be hard to write a free/open source transliterator that will work as a first-pass and be just as good as Saffa. I noticed that Saffa does not care about the kamatz katan, or dagesh consonant doubling, and gets the shva na/nach wrong most of the time (By the way, there’s something seriously wrong with the transliteration of the end of L’cha dodi).
I do think a project of this sort is worthwhile, and since you’re talking about it, I thought you might want to know that you’re not the only one.
Thank you again for the great feedback. Based on your thoughts about use it sounds like we have a lot in common. I look forward to chatting with you after the holidays.
On technology – I agree that it would ultimately be nice to find a way to abandon anything that is MS reliant. In the short run, my experience has been that most folks in the Jewish ed. world are working on the cheapest machines (which generally means PCs) and are not the most tech savvy bunch (which generally means they use whatever comes with it – windows and ms office) and so a chunk of the likely audience for the site (those teaching others how to daven) are probably ok with this temporary setup. Still, I completely agree that it would be fantastic to move to something that was truly tech independent. Definitely something to add to the list.
On copyright issues – I agree, whole heartedly! When I first noticed the copyright claims in places like Artscroll siddurim and machon mamre tanachs (and others) I was a bit put off, to say the least. After doing some research on the case-law I noticed one thing that gave me some solace. It could be just my old copies of the siddurim but it seems the artscrolls I have are copyrighted to a date that was before the cases that clarified that the text wouldn’t be copyrightable. I haven’t had a chance to take a look at a “new” artscroll but I wonder if they’ve either dropped the practice or just left it with that old copyright date. Truth is – the copyright statement in my artscroll is perhaps the most passionate copyright statement I’ve ever seen. It almost appears to be a request rather than a claim; “Please don’t copy our text… we worked so hard on it and we want to be able to continue to charge for it in some exclusive way.” Well, while I feel for them, I would feel better about it if the copyright claim was only made to those parts that are copyrightable. Like you, the way they’ve claimed copyright specifically to both things that are and things that are not copyrightable feels a bit dishonest to me.
If you’re interested in some “light” reading, somewhere on one of my drives I have copies of the cases on point. Incidentally, though notes on cases are, cases themselves are not copyrightable either. *GRIN*
As for nusach – Ah… yes… now I understand. On that, I was thinking it would be good to work on that and make multiple “versions”. As I’m sure you’re aware, there are many folks that feel the sephard nusach is more “spiritual” or somehow otherwise more meaningful. One of my rabbis uses a different siddur with a different nusach based on the events of the day and the way they feel. Anyhow… good suggestion. Another thing for the list.
Now, as for transliteration – I’ll have to figure out what’s up with L’cha dodi. incidentally, ch for chet and k for kuf is one of those transliteration things that I use but it seems k for chet and q for kuf is more common. I too don’t really use transliteration (except when teaching someone who isn’t comfortable as a Hebrew reader yet) and so I too have little sense of what works for those that need it. I’m keeping my eyes open for folks that might work as a better guinea pig.
As for the kamatz katan, shva na, shva nach, and the like, Saffa actually claims to be able to be configured for different pronunciations like with shva na and shva nach (at least I think it does… I didn’t play with those settings). I like the idea of creating a tool that would create the transliteration online on-demand but I worry that that might be beyond my ability. On the other hand, the beauty of the internet is finding folks to partner with that have skills I lack so… yeah… add that one to the list as well!
Now… unrelated to all of this, we’ll have to play the Jewish-geography game sometime soon. I bet we have a number of friends and acquaintances in common. In the short run, here’s a quickie – I have a lot of friends and family in Boston and the surrounding areas including my aunt Miriam who is the director of Hillel at MIT. Moving a step outside Boston, I went to school in Amherst, MA though it has been a while since I graduated. A step further out I lived in Jerusalem for a while and spent much of my time at Yakar (know it?) both as a student and as a member of the greater yakar community. Anyhow… we should compare notes. Shanah Tova!
On technology II — It’s true that most potential users will be Windows (or Mac!) based, the majority of the tech-savvy free software community — that is, potential contributors — is Linux/BSD based.
Also, I don’t think it’s a good idea to do any serious amount of work knowing that it would have to fundamentally change.
My approach would be to:
(1) list the features a final version should support
(2) design the infrastructure to support those features (eg, an XML-based language, a Wiki/web gateway)
(3) Set out a prioritized roadmap with milestones and various modes for parallel development (eg, birkat hamazon+zemirot and siddur)[*]
(4) Begin making contributions for an absolutely minimally useful version that demonstrates the features (Kabbalat Shabbat or Birkat Hamazon in Hebrew only would work for this)
(5) Make a Usenet and/or blog announcement soliciting contributions
Few people would contribute to a project that doesn’t already look like it would be in active development without them.
I don’t have it on me at the moment, but I was pretty sure my Artscroll had a rather nastier sounding copyright page.
Mechon Mamre (may be based on Israeli copyright law, not US), claims:
The Internet Sacred Text Archive makes no such claims, and actually mentions that their works are public domain, so, I would feel freer copying from them. MM also doesn’t bother to tell you how their work is different. Incidentally, I once read that map publishers claim copyright on their works (which are effectively uncopyrightable lists) by adding street names that don’t exist!
On transliteration — I’m pretty sure I could write something about equal to Saffa with the settings you’re using. I’m not sure that I could create something much better, because the grammatical rules start getting complicated.
On Jewish geography — I don’t know of Yakar, but I have a number of connections to the Cambridge Jewish community (Harvard and MIT Hillel, Tremont St Shul…).
[*] Example beginning roadmap:
Siddur branch:
S0.01 Kabbalat Shabbat/Ashkenaz
S0.02 Ma’ariv for Shabbat/Ashkenaz [This version is the first one that’s potentially useful!]
S0.03a Ma’ariv for Chol/Ashkenaz
S0.03b Mincha for Chol/Ashkenaz
S0.03c Ma’ariv for Festivals/Ashkenaz
S0.04a Mincha for Shabbat/Ashkenaz
S0.04b Mincha for Festivals/Ashkenaz
S0.05 Minimalist Shacharit for weekdays
S0.06a Minimalist Shacharit for Shabbat
S0.06b Birchot Hashachar
S0.06c Pesukei D’zimrah for weekdays
S0.07 Pesukei D’zimrah for Shabbat and Holidays
and so on …
Bentcher branch:
B0.01 Birkat Hamazon/Ashkenaz for weekdays
B0.02 Birkat Hamazon/Ashkenaz with all possible holiday additions
B0.03 Kiddush for Shabbat (night/day)+Shalom Aleichem
B0.04 Kiddush for all Festivals (night/day)
B0.05 Other brachot achronot
B0.06+ Begin regular releases with additions of zemirot
– Between releases, accept only corrections to completed sections and additions to current works-in-progress (?)
– After each release, begin accepting instructions, translations, transliterations, commentary, and nusach variations, but only for an already completed section. In other words, original text in an arbitrary nusach (set here to Ashkenaz) gets priority. This means that if someone wants to write a commentary on something that’s not already in the siddur, they have to contribute the original part first.
– Prioritize additions to the next release based on the next minimally useful addition to what’s already there. (eg, once you have a version of the weekday amidah and ma’ariv for shabbat, then, ma’ariv for weekdays is almost trivial)
I’m probably getting way ahead of myself here.
Once again, your suggestions are fantastic. I really appreciate you helping take this from the amorphous concept to the structured final output. I think your suggestions are great. Also… just as a side note… I agree completely with your analysis of users and contributors and the systems they are likely to use. In terms of taking the stuff I’ve already typed out and switching it over to an independent system like you describe above what all is involved? Is it not as simple as me cutting and pasting? For example, what happens if I paste something here?
Here’s the first Line from Shir L’Maalot (Esa Eynai). It should read:
E-sa ey-nai el he-ha-rim
complete with the Hebrew text and nikudot…
?ֶשָּׂ? עֵינַי ?ֶל הֶהָרִי?
So… looks like that worked. It wouldn’t be that difficult then for me to simply copy the text from the files I created into some new files, right? Anyhow… something to think about.
Shabbat Shalom!
Yes, I think you’re right. You can simply cut and paste, remove formatting and save as Unicode text. The whole project should be standardized on a single encoding (eg, UTF-8).
Before adding more text, though, I would work on the infrastructure. The infrastructure involves actual technology (a Web server) [1], standards for use of the technology (an XML-based markup language) [2], and sets of policies and standards for how to make contributions [3]. Designing infrastructure is more or less the boring part, but, if it’s done right, then you end up having to do a minimum amount of duplicate work.
[1] The need for a web server is obvious. Wiki software would probably be a good way to go about it, because it will also have a consistent interface and keep track of changes. It would have to be programmable, so, for example, one button and a few checkboxes could generate a weekday siddur in nusach ashkenaz with a translation, but no transliteration. I’m pretty sure that a combination of a Wiki package, XML and PHP will be able to do the trick. Once that’s set up, I would suggest moving from a blog/comment setup to a public forum (BBoard?) or mailing list.
[2] The XML-based language could be used to mark up the original text. The XML tags should only contain “metadata,” such that if the XML tags are removed, only the original text remains. Metadata includes: structural data about the text (is it an acrostic? a poem?) , data about how the text is used (Is part of it added or removed on certain days of the year?), links to various inserts (Where are the commentaries, translations transliterations and instructions stored?), etc.
[3] Standards and policies include issues as varied as copyright licensing, what contributions would be accepted when, and the text encoding the files are stored in. Some of these are technological, some aren’t.
By the way, while I know what this technology can do, I am no expert in setting up or using it. I’m more or less learning as I go along.
Shavua Tov/Shana Tova!
Shavuah Tov! Thanks again for the continued input. I think your synopsis is right on point. It seems the bottom line of finding folks also interested in this project who can help with the tech end.
[1] In terms of the server – my host is a friend of mine so I imagine he’ll be able to provide just about anything I might need. As you can see from the wordpress – our server is already running PHP and MySQL. It’s also got Pearl setup so all of that together I think wiki could be easily dropped in and used as could PHPBB or the like.
[2] I’ve been playing with XML recently and while I’m getting the hang of XML I’m still getting a bit hung up on XSL. For a charity project I’ve been working on I’ve been playing with the google map api (you can see what I’ve been playing with at http://www.law.du.edu/stuaffs/basketmaps/) and have been playing a bit with XML for that (though since I’m not there yet I ended up not using xml for the final product on that site). The project was welcome baskets for students we adopted here at the law school from New Orleans in the wake of Katrina. The baskets include products donated by local business as well as a letter I put together of all sorts of great insider-Denver tips. I then plotted all the sources on the maps on that site.
OK… so that’s a bit of a side-track. Back to the issue before us. From what I know about XML I think you’re right that it is the way to go here. If we can use XML to get the texts put together it will likely be flexible in exactly the way you described – namely that the same text will be manipulatable in lots of places without having to duplicate it.
[3] The standards and policies question seems to be something that can be answered without a complete knowledge of the technology (and might even help whomever ends up doing the tech end structure whatever it is they end up doing). You’ve begun creating the framework above and so we could treat that as an outline and start tweaking it. One thing we haven’t talked about yet and probably should is… in the long run, how will this site be paid for? There’s the “ad” route… which, if done right, shouldn’t interfere too much with the user experience but does carry some questions (like what happens if the ad engine puts something inappropriate up). Alternatively, there’s the direct donation option (maybe a paypal thing or something like that). For now I’m happy to keep hosting it on my site, but eventually it will likely need its own space. As I mentioned earlier, I am a law student so I hope to soon be a lawyer and perhaps make some money so it might be possible for me to continue paying for it myself – though its hard for me to really thing about that since I’m just a student with little to no income. 🙂
Anyhow… that’s that. Shavuah Tov and Shanah Tova!
[1] That’s good.
[2] I’m also a quick study. 🙂
[3] Yes, S&P does not require knowledge of the technology. It only requires knowledge of what you want the final product to look like. It’s more of a grand vision thing, whereas the specific technologies are more nitty-gritty.
As for money, I’m also a student, and I have a long time in my career before making any serious money. The primary (only?) cost would be hosting/bandwidth. I have no clue what these go for. What kind of hosting we can get access to may influence the technology decisions. For example, you can get a project hosted at Sourceforge (or similar) for free if it’s released under an OSI-approved license. But, then, you have to use CVS (or similar) to manage source, rather than a Wiki, and that’s bad from a non-techie contributor standpoint. For starters, though, I’d take whatever hosting I could get and run with it.
I have no interest in making a profit on this project. A PayPal donation box would probably be the best way to go, although I don’t expect the donations to come rolling in, even once a usable product can be delivered. At that point, you have to start worrying about all the things that come with collecting money, like becoming a non-profit corporation, and all that goes into that.
I’m just putting this message here to indicate to anyone who finds it that this project is alive. If you’re interested in participating in the initial setup, leave a comment here.
Hi,
I saw your posting on Hanashir and checked out your site. What a great idea! This could be extremely useful for groups constructing a creative service. The format is nice and the font looks great.
I only looked at L’chah Dodi and was surprised to find a couple of Hebrew mistakes. The one that sticks out in my mind is מר?ש מקד?. Your transliteration has m’kedem, which matches the Hebrew (being a shva not a chirik as it should be).
Also, the system of transliteration looks good, but your title, “Lekhu N’ran’na” is confusing as you have two sh’va-im transliterated both as ‘e in Lekhu and an appostrophe. Inconsistencies have been the downfall of great nations! 🙂
I offer this only to help. What you’re doing is great and the amount of editing this must take is also great. I wish you luck.
Kol Tuv,
Ross Wolman
Hi Ross,
Thanks for the comment. I believe it is all fixed now (in the Hebrew) but if you have specific errors in either the Hebrew or transliteration, let me know and I’ll try to make corrections. Thanks for the post!
Ariel
Great site. Yours is the only one that has allowed me to copy and paste the Hebrew text and still retain the VOWELS!!!
I’m currently writing a Siddur for my summer camp (B’nai B’rith Perlman Camp) and assembling the necessary text is, to put it lightly, daunting and time consuming.
Keep up the good work and I’m sure many people are reaping the benefits of your efforts. B’hatzlechah!
Randy
This is a useful project. I wondered if the ability of people to print “drafts” would end up in a lot paper (with brachot etc.) that gets thrown away, where it would once have been disposed of in the halachically correct way?
Thanks for the comment. I’ve always thought of the task of placing such documents in a geneiza, after they’ve moved beyond usefulness, as a matter of personal responsibility. Personally, I try to keep the text off paper as long as I can (both for ecological reasons and religious ones) and then I keep a folder for the few things I feel need to find a permanent retirement at some point soon. My wife and I just moved and we’ve been unpacking boxes of books a little bit at a time (our library is a bit overwhelming). As Chanukah approached I found new motivation to increase my unpacking and find the single page printouts I made a few years ago which contained the brachot, Hanerot Hallallu, and Ma’o Tzur. I’m pleased to report that we found them and had them around for guests who were unfamiliar with the words. Anyhow… that’s my take.
Hi.
I’m trying to write a small siddur for just kabbalat shabbat by using hebrew text as graphics that I can cut and paste into a program as a pdfs. It sounds like you’ve created something like that, but I’m not sure where to access it. Any suggestions?
Norah
Hi Norah,
Nice to hear from you. To start, you can take a look at the texts section of this site in the upper right hand corner of the main page. If you find yourself on a comments page you may need to click the link at the top of the page to get back to the main site. I’ll shoot you an email to see if there is something specific I can do to help you on your project.
Ariel
I’ve decided to move comments to their own page here and close the commenting on the front page. Feel free to leave me a message there. Thanks!
Hi Ariel,
I would like to thank you for providing the free text. I made my own customized siddur reusing part of your works, you can check it out at my personal wiki http://arizal770.wikispaces.com
Todah raba,
Ari
Hi Ari,
Thank you for your note. I’m glad the texts came in handy. Based on what I read at your site it sounds to me like you are on quite a journey. Perhaps sometime we can trade texts (so I can add some nusach ha’ari to my site). What a scary thought, living under an oppressive regime. Particular topical with Purim just around the corner. Be safe.
Shavuah Tov,
Ariel
I am looking for a transliteration of the brit milah service. Do you know if such exists? mindy
Hi Mindy,
It’s funny you should ask. I just returned from my cousin’s newborn’s brit milah and I helped her create exactly that. I’ll try to get the files up soon. I’ll email you directly to check on timing and needs. This may be presumptuous but at risk of that: Mazal tov! Talk to you soon.
Ariel
Update:
The brit milah files are up on the texts page. The Brit Milah service is at the bottom of the Tfillah section, the zimmun both traditional and egalitarian are both in the birkat section and the harachamanim in the birkat section now contains the brit milah harachamanim. Let me know if there is more I can do to be helpful. Thanks!
Just a note about the Tunes page. The midi and mp3 files for the traditional version of Shalom Aleychem are reported as not found.
Thanks for the note about the tunes page – all fixed (I think). Let me know if you catch any others. In this case it was a typo in the address. Amazing what one character can do. Thanks again!
בס”ד
Thank You for the nice blog and the good ideas
Moshe
Glad you found it useful, Moshe! Thanks for your comment! Keep an eye out for new content to be added soon.
Thanks for a wonderful site. I found a small mistake in Psalm 96. You skipped a line (in English):
Say among the nations, the Lord reigneth: the world also is set firm that it cannot be moved: he shall judge the peoples with equity. Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad;
in transliterated Hebrew:
Imru vagoyim Adonai malach, af tikon teiveil bal timot, yadin amim
b’meisharim. Leader Yism’chu hashamayim v’tageil ha-aretz
Thanks, Joe. I’ll take a look as soon as I have a chance (most likely in the next day or two) and get that corrected. Thanks again for the assist!